Talk:White Eagles
Hey I'm just curious were did you find the preheresy space marine painter, as I i'm trying to find one at the moment and could use some help Cheers LordReaperLordReaper (talk) 02:49, March 8, 2014 (UTC) I have posted the link on my blog, hope it helps :) Well, it looks like my post on my blog just vanished, so I posted it on your talk then : / Hey I can't actually use the template (much to my annoyance) I was just wondering if you'd do me a favour and colour some for me, i know its a bit of an ask but i'd really appriciate it. The colours id need for it are exactly like pre-heresy night lords but black where the armour is blue Thanks in advance LordReaperLordReaper (talk) 10:04, March 11, 2014 (UTC) Black armour, skulls? So in other words you want my Rotmaster (chaplain)? Well, here it comes. http://cap.ring0.cc/340416b8ff577b8af26fe0097dec70f0.png have fun :) Or do you want some other armor variant? I can see you put a great deal of effort into this Chapter, but how you organize and explain certain aspects of it makes it very difficult to understand. For that matter there may be a few canon problems with it. Notably the numbers. I am your master! At your service. (talk) 16:38, March 18, 2014 (UTC) @Supahbadmarine Well, for starters hello and thanks for your feedback :) And moving on to the main issue: you may call me Busy Marine, if you've heard about Angry Marines you should get the idea ;) I have some notes, and I am constantly adding things to my article so it might seem very chaotic but I can assure you that at least the idea itself isn't. But I don't have time to look for mistakes and rewrite it, so I am always thankful for any form of help pointing out missing letters :) Also I don't really get how this chat system works, so I have no idea whether you read this msg or not. But I hope that you'll visit again soon, so I'll post it here anyway. SpaceTalon (talk) 20:25, March 18, 2014 (UTC) No prob. I always keep an eye out for responses when I make a comment. I am your master! At your service. (talk) 20:28, March 18, 2014 (UTC) I am planning a massive rewrite in the next 2~3 weeks. *General rearrangement. *Creation of separate Regnum Aquilae and Legio Morfeus articles. *More things about the White Eagles. *Other things I may or may not come up with. SpaceTalon (talk) 22:15, June 16, 2014 (UTC) I'm wondering, why have you used so many gallery templates for single images when a simple photo template would work fine? Honestly, I think it would look cleaner and be more effective without so many 'Add a photo to this gallery' Stamps everywhere. AmyTheStray (talk) 11:11, August 8, 2014 (UTC) Thanks for your opinion. I am trying to use photo template, but they are fighting back, and it quickly gets annoying. But I will try to change galleries to photos. SpaceTalon (talk) 13:06, August 8, 2014 (UTC) Hey there. I felt the need to point some things out. First of all I would like to point out that the Codex Astartes isn't weak by any manner of the imagination. It actually probably the single most brilliant military manual mankind has ever produced. Having said that there are always situations that aren't covered in any strategic manual, no matter how brilliant it is. This is why Chapters that adhere to strictly to the Codex sometimes get in trouble. It's not the fault of the Codex itself, but rather of the Marines for being inflexible in the face of a situation that isn't covered in the Codex. Adding to that the Inquisition and Codex Chapters don't try to exterminate Non-Codex Chapters. They don't particularly like or trust them, with the general thought being "If they are willing to break the sacred tenents of the Codex Astartes then what other taboos are they willing to commit?". However they don't exterminate Chapters simply for doing their own thing. They would however persecute a Chapter whose size was significantly over the size of a Codex Chapter. This is because the 1000 Marine Chapter unit was established to prevent the advent of widespread corruption within Chapter ranks. The thought being to prevent instances like the Horus Heresy where massive Legions were pulled into heresy by their leaders. By limiting the size of a Chapter the IMperium reduces the chances of a humongous force of Marines going traitor all at once. I am concerned with the idea of the Chosen. It's stated that they are drawn from men of around twenty and that after a period of service they are inducted into the Chapter as full Marines. This isn't really possible as the recruitment window for Marines is around 12-16. The reason for this is mechanisms by which Gene-Seed alters the body. Gene-Seed works in tandem with the physiological processes that occur during puberty to create the affect. This is why one can be too old to become a Marine. The Gene-seed needs to be implanted so that it's effects coincide with puberty. Now there are cases of puberty happening late in a person's life, but these are extremely rare. About the Order of Zahnrad. I don't dfeel that such a group would be realistic. First off the idea that the Emperor and the Omnissiah are the same isn't really believed for the most part. The Adeptus Mechanicus made this claim to help ease the relationship with the Ecclesiarchy, and the rest of the Emperor worshipping Imperium. It was a compromise they made to ease tensions, but despite this neither side takes the idea too seriously for the most part. It's maintained so that the Ecclesiarchy has an excuse for not waging Holy War on a group that worships a different god, and so that the iMperium can continue to count on the adpetus Mechanicus' vital support. ON that note while the AdMech's hoarding of knowledge is partially the result of wanting to maintain power, it's also religiously based. To the Admech knowledge itself is sacred and powerful. Thus they believe that ti must be treated with respect and reverence. So they see it as sacrilegious to entrust such knowledge to the unworthy, or those that would abuse it. All of this aside a bunch of do-ggoder Techpriests out to share knowledge with the common fuck is a little to Mary Sue for my tastes. Not NCF, but I think you would improve these guys by giving them a slightly less altruistic motive. Finally I feel the need to address these guys being based off the Sarmatians. Now this in and of itself is not so bad. Numerous factions in the IMperium draw inspiration from ancient armies and civlizations of Earth. My issue is that they draw their customs from Sarmatians that somehow survived into 40k. It's well established that mankind lost nearly all knowledge of their heritage and history on Earth. I think it's a little too much that there is a nomadic group of humans called the Sarmatians which maintain so much of the ancient culture. However this is an easy fix. All that needs to be done is to slightly alter the name. Overall nice work though. I am your master! At your service. (talk) 01:35, August 9, 2014 (UTC) At first, as always thank you fro your oppinion :) Let me start answering from the last paragraph: White Eagles, are not based on Sarmatians per se, they are... wait for it (and don't laugh)... Polish Space Marines We have romans, mongols and greeks already - so why not some guys based on polish military ethos? Especially if you remember how badass were Winged Hussars in their time. And as for the Order of Zahnrad: they used to be a minor sect, saved from certain doom by the WE, who just happened to be on the run themselves. They are also not a "bunch of do-gooder Techpriests" The main difference between them and the mainstream Mechanicus is the fact that they don't see themselves as a separate entity, but as another branch of the same organization. It's like that: every crewman should be able to do some basic repairs of his tank, but to maintain a war plan you need mechanics train especially in it, and to operate the Large Hadron Collider you will use people who don't even speak human language anymore. - I hope, that I am making any sense, its 5am, but I am doing my best. Choosen: if I remember correctly, you can still implan gene-seed into older people, but they will have higher chance to die in the process - there was something like that involving friends of Russ. Also Black Templars and this picture: http://img.myconfinedspace.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/brother-brunar.jpg Well and as for the first paragraph - WE adhered strongly to tactical side of the Codex in the past, so when they had to fight against the enemy that was a master of those tactics, they had lost couple of battles. And so they decided to start using old tactics of the natives of their home planet - which worked out pretty well, so they decided to continue relying on them. Somewhere along the way they had also trashed Codex organization because they needed more marines to combat the chaos threat. When they had been contacted by the Imperium, they were in the middle of preparations for some Vengeance Crusade - massing fleets and armies to strike back at the mutants and heretics. After losing their home planet they were somehow on age. Mistakes were made, shots were fired, and in the end WE had been expelled from the sub sector. Hope that my explanation will help, I will most likely rewrite them after I wake up later today SpaceTalon (talk) 03:32, August 9, 2014 (UTC) I understand but some of these are still issues that need to be resolved. I don'tquite understand what you're going for with the Order, but that's my problem. The issue with the Sarmatians is that no culture survived the Age of Strife intact. There are many cultures that resemble the old ones, but in the end they aren't those cultures themselves. They usually go by different names, and have slight difference in tradition. Those traditions that they retain are kept by tradition, where they come from is unknown by those that practice them. So you see the issue isn't that the White Eagles are inspired off these traditions, but rather that Sarmations survived into this era. All that really needs to be done is to have a few names modified, and maybe a couple of small differences in culture. However this is a sticking point. Otherwise the article would be NCF. The thing about the Chosen is as well. It's true that Aspirants have been implanted as late as 20, but these are extremely rare cases in which one undergoes puberty late, as the biological processes of puberty work in tandem with Gene-Seed to create the desired change in the Aspirant. Having a Chapter recruit from 20 year olds on an institutional level isn't possible. The thing with the Space Wolves is a special case, as so much is with them. The bit about the Codex isn't a big deal. I only mentioned it because in the article you state that the White Eagles abandonned the Codex because they "Recognized its weaknesses". The point I was trying to make is that the Codex doesn't have any real weaknesses. It is for all intents and purposes the greatest military manual ever written. However just as real life doesn't always work as books describe them, so too are there situations, albeit rare, that the Codex doesn't forsee. This is why Chapters that adhere to strictly to the Codex often find themselves in trouble when they come across a situation that the Codex can't account for. The weakness is in the Marines lack of adaptibility, not in some flaw in the Codex itself. Anyway that is a minor point, and you need not address it. I hope that I have done a better job of clarifying my points, and it's good that you are intending to renovate your article. I look forward to the finished product. I am your master! At your service. (talk) 19:34, August 9, 2014 (UTC) I have to say you have done a good job of cleaning up this article. Most of the issues are more of less gone. However there is now one glaring problem. "...considered Renegade by some". These guys have founded their own empire on the edge of the galaxy. I hate to tell you this, but these guys basically have "Traitor" status. Founding their own empire is the same as betraying their oath to the Emperor in the eyes of the Imperium, and I don't mean just hte "Mean ol Inquisition". The Other Space Marine Chapters would view them as traitor scum as well, and Imperial forces would have orders to view them as hostiles. I am your master! At your service. (talk) 15:56, September 6, 2014 (UTC) Hello Supahbadmarine, and as always thank you for your comment :) Well, when I was writing "...considered Renegade by some" I've done it with their violation of Codex in mind. My idea for the Regnum Aquilae was based on the relationship between the sovereign and his vassals, and the fact that the galaxy is very big. After leaving the Zabran system WE were crusading for some time. And because they had recognized the orks as the biggest threat to the Imperium, they ventured deep into the uncharted regions, wanting to bring the war to the green skins. Far from Imperial space and stable warp routes, they had found the Sarmats and their petty kingdom. After its subjugation, WE decided to make it their base of operation, as it was surrounded by the orks from three sides and they had to resupply and replace their losses. And then they had spent next millennium fighting orks in nearby sectors, somewhere along the way they had subjugated another human domain. Even now the Regnum Aquilae suffers from ork invasions - minor are almost constant, with major ones happening at least once every generation. But they are still Imperium's vassals, so those space marines who are not busy fighting orks at the moment are sent to fight other threats somewhere else and so are the human soldiers. reminds me that I was planning to write something about it Anyway... they are like people living in a village deep in the mountains, most of the time they are fighting off the barbarian invaders trying to cross from the other side, or preparing for the next fight. Most of the population has never seen the rest of the kingdom, or the king - expect for that couple of dudes who travel to the other village once per year to sell some skins. But even so they consider themselves to be king's men, and when the time comes, they gather their spears and march to battle. But apart from those rare occasions the rest of the kingdom is not very interesting in the village or its existence, because the region is poor, road long and hard, and only unique thing that the village has is a constant threat of barbarian raid. SpaceTalon (talk) 19:49, September 9, 2014 (UTC) I get it, but still. The Imperium would look at the WE claiming their own Empire, loyal or not, as a sign of rebellion. IN all things you must remember that the IMperium is extremely paranoid about traitors. The entire structure of Space Marine Chapters, the Imperial Guard and countless other branches of the Adeptus Terra were designed to make it hard to betray, and to limit the potential damage of traitors. SO regardless about how the WE and the Regulum Aguilae view themselves, they would be viewed as separatists by the Imperium. I am your master! At your service. (talk) 20:30, September 9, 2014 (UTC) Well, hmm... eh. Ok, it's weird. They are separated from the Imperium only in a sense, that for the most time they are cut off, because traveling through the warp becomes too dangerous or impossible entirely snow in the mountains. They are under constant attack by the orks, and occasionally heretics - but despite that they managed to create a small hub of safe human controlled space. Even more, they are always ready to help the Imperium if they can. "Denizens of the Regnum Aquilae take their responsibilities to the God-Emperor very seriously, so despite being what might be seen as outcasts, they continue to support the Imperium every way they can." So how can they be called traitors? SpaceTalon (talk) 22:11, September 9, 2014 (UTC) It isn't about how they are, or how they feel ST. It's about how the IMperium would view them. According to Imperial ideology all humans should be under the rule of the IMperium. The direct rule. An independent yet allied nation can't exist. More to the point they would be worried over the fact that the white eagles have an entire empire under their command. They would be worried that the White eagles might decide they're better off without the Imperium. Also if they are cut off from the Imperium so often then how do they help them? I am your master! At your service. (talk) 22:16, September 9, 2014 (UTC) So either for every 3 years they are cut off for 2, or for every 4 months, they are cut off for 3 or something like that - I haven't decided yet. I am also considering making them jump between psychic beacons, so I could write something about space battles against orks to defend those. But back on topic: two thirds of the Chapter are constantly crusading through the galaxy, and the remaining third is either fighting orks around RA or rebuilding after taking losses. They also export weapons, soldiers and food, while importing raw materials needed in Silesian forges. So you can say that they are paying their Tithes. Also one of the points for which I have decided to put RA far away from everything, is the fact that byzantine bureaucracy of the Imperium would probably ignore it entirely - which is quite possible, because it's very similar to the old Russian Empire, which had made a habit of forgetting about small towns in siberia. SpaceTalon (talk) 22:51, September 9, 2014 (UTC) If they are an official realm of the IMperium then they are in violation of the piece of fluff stating that Ultrmar is the biggest realm controlled by an SM Chapter. Anyway more to the point the IMperium doesn't let people run themselves. They are either fully part of the Imperium, or they are slated for conquest, and having a Space Marine chapter that is bigger than normal to begin with have control of the armies of a small empire would get the Imperium very nervous. They woulkd seek to squash them as a potential threat. I am your master! At your service. (talk) 23:21, September 9, 2014 (UTC) The imperium functions similar to an ancient empire like Persia. They directly rule, but the townships and individual planets ultimately are missed. That said the regions themselves if the Imperium doesn't feel like it doesn't have proper control it will bring in its armys. So a people who officially have self government and anything resembling a military are targets for conquest. Allow me a demonstration. This is your body...WITHOUT FIBER! (talk) 00:02, September 10, 2014 (UTC) I have never stated that RA is bigger than Ultramar, but I guess it's not so important considering the rest of the problems. Hmm.... so the real question is if or when the Imperium would realise, that RA exists somewhere beyond its borders. It is far from Terra, main warp routes, or sectors of great importance, and the Imperium doesn't know how many WE there are exactly. So what you are saying is: #I should write them contacting nearest Imperial HQ and asking for some government to be shipped in, instead of taking the matters into their own hands. #They should create RA with the secession in mind, and declare independence 1st chance they get. #Someone in the Imperium realises, that he doesn't like what he is seeing, and decides to make a preemptive strike just in case. I must say, that especially the 3. option sounds alluring. But I would prefer to roll with the Imperium not fully realizing that RA exists. Edit: And how about making a deal with some inquisitor: he would vouch for them or keep the rest of his pals of their back and in return they would fight in his battles? Or maybe something involving rogue traders? If they would induct a heir of RT bloodline into their ranks, would it help? I am asking seriously, I have close to 0 knowledge about RT lore. SpaceTalon (talk) 15:12, September 10, 2014 (UTC) Witam! It's nice to see a fellowman working here. What do we have here... Oh, Poles in SPEHSS! Literally. I mean come on... Gniezno (city in Poland), Silesia (region of Poland), Zawisza the Black (the most famous Polish knight - he's even from the same freaking place!), Sarmatians (ancient tribe). Look, they even have Piłsudski! I mean inspiration, even heavy, is okay, putting small references also, ripping off is not. Sure, 99% of readers won't notice it, but I did, so just to be fair. Even in my similar Chapter (also inspired by Poland, so it's hard to avoid similarities), Eagle Guard, I came up with my own names. Another issue I spotted: is it me or they are kinda mary sue-ish? I mean having their own, hidden, completely independent, interstellar empire, while showing middle finger to the rest of Imperium. Hell, you even gave them their own AdMech crew, because why not? Meanwhile Marines Malevolent are collecting armors from scraps. Small digression - I noticed that like 99% of fanfiction inspired by Poland and it's people is incredibly mary sue-ish. Damn inferiority complex! What else... Oh, they're chivalrous, kind, rescpectful, blah blah... Just put a sign "free hugs" on their armors - too much noblebright IMO. It's your vision but I would give them some spice and add some flaws, because they seem perfect or dangerously near that line, so in my opinion that makes them just boring. But it's up to you. I am also surprised that only SOME in Imperium consider them Renegade. I think that High Lords don't give a shit how hard you wank to Emperor's portrait. You are with them or against. No third options. Unless I don't know about something. Oh, really nice graphics, by the the way. Especially armor and colour scheme is cool. And even though I complained a bit (you don't even have to care about it), I still consider this a decent article - mentioned graphics, nicely organized, spelling and grammar is okay (I guess? :D). DzonyRambo (talk) 15:17, October 24, 2014 (UTC) Well put. I am your master! At your service. (talk) 18:56, October 24, 2014 (UTC) as always thank you for your comments I am almost willing to bet that you are simply jelly because my idea was here 1st :P not some mere city - in fact it was the first capital of Poland ;-) notable for its coal mines and generally associated with heavy industry well almost, original Zawisza came not from the Garbow Void Station but from a village bearing the same name we Sarmats now Piłsudski coat of arms to be persist why should I try to come up with some latin-like names, when for the majority of the wiki users, those of the Polish ancestry would be more exotic and thus interesting? besides I really like our culture in fact they are far from flawless First and foremost: lawful good doesn't mean lawful nice. Galaxy is a nasty place, full of deviants, liars, mutants and other chaos spawns. People are mean and more than eager to stab you in the back. In such a surroundings the solo fact that WE are following some chivalric code makes them severely handicapped. In the grim darkness of the 41st millenium concern about others is a weakness. e.g.: they will suffer heavier losses due to trying to limit the civilian casualties there is also this Omega 6 protocol, but I never have time to write about it Just like with the numbers of the Black Templars, outside of the Chapter no-one knows how things really work, some people might suspect something but RA is located in the outer reaches of the outer reaches so far away from any sector of significant importance, that no-one ever goes there and so no-one knows about it. let me emphasize it once more - RA is located far away from the important systems, strategic locations and mainstream warp routes, so only one ever visiting are orks thanks to this I might one day write that a warp gate opened there and everyone died, and still it would have close to no effect on the rest of the galaxy some consider them renegades, because of their association with the Moirae forgeworld and so called Moirae Doctrine, but nothing has been proved, so as far as Lords of Terra are concerned White Eagles are those not very bright but funny guys, poking around the galaxy fighting orks, burning witches and singing songs about fair ladies ouch, though luck... maybe we can start a foundation and donate pieces of armor and equipment to poor Marines Malevolent? Order of the Zahnrad is simply a plot hook, that might, or might not, be used later on and generally serves are a explanation for the effects of me playing with Gimp 2 if you have any other questions or suggestions post them here, I will make sure to address them as soon as I am able to cheers SpaceTalon (talk) 23:30, October 24, 2014 (UTC) Every time I spend some time to read this article through, it is completely different than it was. And that is okay, I don't mind, everyone is free to edit their (own) articles, not something I'm complaining about. I am a bit frustrated though, because this article was, when I last looked it (when it was alltogether different) hanging on the thin line of canon friendliness. This also includes the rest of articles associated with this. Saying is non-canon friendly in my honest opinion. Is it as Dzony said, either you are with them or against, Imperium is not known for its tolerance to heretics. The RCMA is also on the very thin line of approvement here and now, but for the intriguing nature of the chapter as a whole I can pass it by as long as you remember, there shall be no permanent Adeptus Mechanicus task force detachment, which this most likely seems... at a moment. Might be I just need some sleep and to take a look on it tomorrow, but still. It is not that I find this article bad, I know you've work long and hard to make it and it seems interesting. If this thing Dzony said about copying Polish hereditary basicly straight from the book is true, I find it absolutely distasteful, even if not forbidden and strongly suggest you to use different names et cetera. Rip-off is always bad and leaves the taste of shit in one's mouth. As a final notice, this article requires heavy proofreading, I think that this mention is enough and you are apparently working on this article again right now, so just fix it when you are done completely. But; fix it. Sooner or later, I'd hate to see White Eagles to get removed, I like your stuff you're bringing with the chapter here. --Remos talk 00:19, October 25, 2014 (UTC) Okay, quoting is kinda pain in the ass, but I suppose everybody is smart enough to follow ;) 1. Even if I am jelly, it doesn't make my points invalid :P Maybe I will put my work as non-canon article or something so it won't waste. Anyway, the idea of putting nation/culture in space is rather cliche. Cliche doesn't necessery mean "bad" - it's all about execution, but the main point of making such article is to make it something more than just a bunch of cultural references tied up together. I didn't say you have to abandon Polish/Slavic names, but taking map of Poland and putting it in Milky Way for me looks kinda... lazy. Not to mention that even on Terra almost none of original names remained during Unification Wars. Plus that Zawisza the Black... Should I expect Brother Wałęsa or High Apostle Jan Paweł too? :D PS Kudos for making them more knigthly rather than "HUSSARS ALL THE WAY". Collab for SPEHSS Lithuanians? :D 2. I see no evidence that virtues are real weakness, only some feud with IG (no consequences for Chapter for slaying "unknown amount of Regiments"?). All those rules are mix of gentleman's and knight's code - something that, in my opinion, a mortal could follow, but not superhuman. I think that even Salamanders didn't bother themselves with establishing rules about treating women or hosts plus some of them are so obvious - "Obey the Law". Really? You have to remind Space Marines such things? Not to mention that SM are above most laws. It kinda looks like you added it just because it makes them look more knightly, but in fact it makes them more like some paladin order from generic fantasy world. But as I said - it's up to you in this matter. Also: underlining zealotry few times - no Black-Templars-style actions : | Fanatism can be lovely in 41st Millenium. 3. After that Badab thing I wouldn't expect High Lords to be so understanding. Besides no other Chapter got privilege to rule over something more than homeworld. Ultramarines are exception (y'know, former Legion created by Emp Himself and stuff) but WE - watch out now! - are not Ultramarines. Hiding heretechs won't give your Chapter bonus points and I suppose somebody would notice their new toys sooner or later. If RA is so insignificant, unimportant and so far away, then what exactly SM Chapter is doing there? They are guarding area that has no strategic value what so ever and because it's so freaking far away they can't response quickly enough which is one of the main adventages of Space Marines. Orks outside of Waaagh! sound like a threat IG could deal with. Correct me, if I am thinking wrong. 4. Also many thanks for that lovely picture :) Just for this you can diss my article sooooo hard :D DzonyRambo (talk) 16:41, October 25, 2014 (UTC) that's good, that's real good - because I've changed it again eh well, I am too tired to be sure, but I think all the matters have been addressed properly *forgot signature... eh those editors feel me with righteous rage SpaceTalon (talk) 20:42, October 25, 2014 (UTC) ...yeah burn hereteks burn. your heretekal ways shall seen you dead. Allow me a demonstration. This is your body...WITHOUT FIBER! (talk) 21:33, November 12, 2014 (UTC) You do know that by turning your birds-of prey into Automatans, you've firmly set yourselves as hereteks. The admech is suspicious of their own automata, and drastically limit the powers and abilities of their own automata cohorts to prevent a cohort's machines going rampart or worse yet rogue. This limitations are the exact opposite of the freedoms given to Space Marine chapters. No personal possession of a forge, no ships, immediately answerable to a fabricator lord. As such the admech seeing automata in a SM chapter wouldn't even take to time to gently correct the mistake...they'd destroy it the mistake.Allow me a demonstration. This is your body...WITHOUT FIBER! (talk) 19:24, November 19, 2014 (UTC) Bird of Prey entry has been returned to its previous state. SpaceTalon (talk) 20:21, November 19, 2014 (UTC)